[Ep02] The Ideal Future of Christian Music w/ Joel Pelsue Art & Entertainment Ministries

In this episode, Magnus Gautestad interviews Joel Pelsue, the President of Arts and Entertainment Ministries, about the intersection of faith, culture, and music. They discuss the importance of integrating modern and traditional music to unify the body of Christ and glorify the Lord. Joel emphasizes the significance of creativity in worship and the need to speak to the current culture while honoring God. He shares examples of how music can facilitate worship and points out that God is a redeemer who can transform even what is considered worldly or corrupt. The discussion also explores the power of music in various contexts, including concerts and hip-hop, and its potential to point people to God.

The speakers also delve into the role of music in worship, emphasizing its ability to connect with individuals on an emotional and spiritual level. They highlight the importance of variety in music and catering to different needs within the congregation. The speakers stress the significance of deep theology in hymns and express the need to honor God rather than seeking personal gratification. They discuss the balance between order and improvisation in music and the role of music in facilitating worship in a church setting. The discussion encourages listeners to explore different genres of music to enhance their spiritual experience and offers resources that provide a biblical defense of contemporary worship music. Overall, the conversation aims to foster understanding and collaboration among artists and church leaders in order to create music that is both beautiful and meaningful.

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Our initiative to revive beauty in music:
https://www.composersforbeauty.org/
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https://www.instagram.com/sdgmusicradio/
https://www.instagram.com/classicalmg/
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Our holistic approach to reviving beauty in arts, architecture, and entertainment:
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https://www.instagram.com/churchsquarerenewalcenter/

Facebook group (soon to be an app) that fuels the Classical Revival with products and services of beauty:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/togetherforbeautymarketplace

Transcript

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Stay with us today because I got a very special guest with me from Art and Entertainment Ministries who will be sharing his perspective on Christian music and beauty. So let's go. There's a war in our churches between modern and traditional music. But the question is this, can we creatively integrate the best of both worlds to unify the body of Christ and glorify the Lord more fully? Join us on this podcast as Christians from various stances share their voice, and come together to develop new creative arrangements and compositions that will help us to worship the Lord more fully and to empower evangelism. I'm Magnus Gautestad and welcome to SDG Music Radio. Welcome, welcome. What a beautiful day it is. I have with me here Joel Pelsue all the way from the United States. How are you doing today, brother? I'm doing great, Magnus. Great to be with you. Let's just start off with a little introduction so you with today. Joel Pelsue is the President of Art and Entertainment Ministries in Los Angeles, California. He and his wife Michelle, co-founded this nonprofit in 2004 in order to equip artists and creative professionals to think, live and create from a biblical worldview. Joel has been teaching for over 25 years on the intersection of faith and culture, and is currently writing a book on a biblical theology of beauty. Joel has a BA in philosophy from West Mount College in Santa Barbara, and his MDiv from Reformed Theological Seminary in Orlando. He's ordained in the PCA and has been a pastor in New York and in Los Angeles for over 20 years. He and his wife Michelle, live in Los Angeles with their three kids, Reid, Sophia and Alexandria. Just knowing Joel, I also want to add now for the audience of this show, that he's also a musician. And so I just thought, okay, this guy is passionate about helping creatives. He's a musician. He is very mindful of beauty in relation to this. And it would be great to just have a couple of questions for you about what is SDG music and the fruits of that, and how we should think of that in the time to come right in the church. So, Joel, what music is SDG music? What music glorifies God alone? Well, that's a huge question. You know, I think as much as we can, it's going back to Scripture, sola Scriptura. And one of the things I love about David, he keeps saying, I need to sing a new song to the Lord. Right? And the Spirit is doing something fresh and new, and God keeps bringing. The reformers will talk about Semper Reformanda, to always reforming. We're always asking, what is God doing today? What does the culture need? How does the gospel reach that part of the culture? And I think that's where musicians and creatives are a key. How do we speak to the current culture? Not forget, we don't have cultural amnesia, not forgetting the last thousand years, 2000 years. We have communion with the saints. Those are our brothers and sisters across the country. Singing with only drums or with harps chords, or with sitars, whatever it is. And to invite that kind of creativity into what we're creating. What is going on here? But I think honoring God, the question is, what is the intent? What is our desire? Why are we writing the music? It is to make it a hit, or is it to minister to them? And with worship, the goal is to facilitate worship in the congregation. How do we help the worshipers worship? And how do we get outta the way? And just to give you a story for me that clicked for this. I was competing in San Francisco at UC Berkeley. There was a jazz festival and Westmont competed. We beat Stanford and some other big schools. We had some great players. But the highlight for me was we went to a clinic with Ellis Marsalis. Now, if you don't know who Ellis is, you know his children, Winton Marsalis, head of the Kennedy Center in dc. Bradford Marsalis used to play with Sting for years, then he was the head of the band for the Tonight Show for years. Their family is Christian, they're from New Orleans. And Ellis teaches children how to play jazz and sweet, you know, a little like five foot one man, walks to the front, sits down at this keyboard, he had a piano, school piano, not really tuned that well. And he talks about, improvisation is like language and teaching kids. So he'll play 12 bar blues and he just tells the kids, play one or two notes, and he's playing this beautiful groove. So very simple. Sounds beautiful. Okay, let's do three notes now. Four notes. But what I learned in that 30 minutes was this man loves jazz and he adores children. He just loves children. But what he really loves is helping children fall in love with jazz. That's what he loves. And for me, that's what a great worship leader is. We're gonna write music for worship. You gotta love music and love the people, and then love helping them worship, and you get outta the way. That's the challenge. I remember my dad growing up, we were a church crew from 100 to 2500, and I remember times where the last chorus or verse of him, he'd hit that first note, you gotta give him the downbeat so people feel secure. Give him that chord, downbeat, get him going, and then he'd tell everyone, get off stage. So by the time you're done singing that verse, it's acapella and there's no human to look at because they aren't at the point to anyone. And I think those are some great illustrations of, especially worship. It's gotta get us to God. And there are so many other issues going on here about, traditional, contemporary, all that stuff. But for me, that's the heart of it. Are you loving people and do you really love helping them focus on God and learn about God, worship God in that moment? And are you willing to get out of the way? Or is your ego, are you not willing to sacrifice that? So that were a couple of thoughts. Right. I think that's a very good and tangible idea to grasp. And I think it's a great way to start. Where do you come from and where are you leading people to you, without getting too much into the nuts and bolts, how that looks, then we know the intentions. How can we facilitate that the music will actually facilitate and point people to God? And when we see the say the word worship, sometimes we're thinking only we're on that hour, hour and a half on Sunday. But worship can be something outside the church service on Sundays as well, right? So if we are having a concert, it would be the same intention, right? Beautiful instrumental music, could this kind of bring people into that experience of beauty that reminds them that there's an order, there's a harmony, there's something there, there must be a God, right? That kind of a thing. I had one professor, I'll say this, I had one professor in seminary, and he went to a U2 concert, and he felt like it was one of the most worshipful experiences he's had in a long time. And of course, U2 is Catholic so they got their spirituality embedded in there, but he felt like it was, it was worshipful, even though it was a mainstream rock concert. Well, I think that's a great place to start, that we really have that main intention in mind. And then you will come to a theological question that the church has been wrestling with through history, about what is really worldly and what is holy. And we can see many times in the Bible, we're talking about the world, right? and what do they really mean there? And I want to say, what would you say is worldly music? This is great. So I think to go back to that is to look at the Book of Exodus, right? So the Book of Exodus is all about the transformation of God coming down to people in slavery, rescuing them, and introducing them to what a culture looks like, where you have a covenant of God who loves you, who does rescue you and provide for you, sustain you, leading you to the Promised land. And that's not different than us now. We're saved from slavery. We're learning to worship God, and we're longing for the New Jerusalem. But what does God do in that context? Because they came out of Egypt. It was completely pagan worship, completely pagan worship temples. The priests were pagans. Everything was not as it should be. And God doesn't say, oh that's tainted. I can't touch it. That's worldly. No. This is the beauty of our God is that He a redeemer. He doesn't just redeem individuals, He redeems entire cultures. And even in Romans, it tells us Romans 8, all of Earth is as birth pains waiting for it to be redeemed. Like we've gotta get outta these blinders of, just me and my Bible. It's just you and I and the Holy Spirit. God's redeeming everything. And he redeems entire cultures. So Bezalel, the first person filled by the Spirit of God in the Bible is an artist. He was probably maybe 13 to 15 years old. Every example he had of art was pagan, every example. And God doesn't say, well, we can't do art. No, from Mount Sinai, God tells Moses, you make art. And a third of the book, this transformation is on artwork. Incense, anointing oil, priestly rose with gold thread, all this stuff. So God takes what is corrupt and flips and redeems, it flips on its head. So He says, you're right, there's an afterlife, but it's not the valley of the dead. Right? And you're right, you need sacrifice like in your heart, you know there's a God, you know there's a price for sin, you know, all these things. And Egypt screwed it up. And I'm gonna show you, when you correct it, what it looks like, your sacrifices, then you're free. Then we're in a relationship, all that beautiful stuff. And so, as I look at music, we have a lot of friends in the hip-hop community, and that's one of those areas that people say is really worldly. And there's a debate, even in the African American church community about some pastors like, you can't use this. It's corrupt. I don't find a biblical precedent for anything that God says, It's out of my scope or my ability to redeem. If Saul was killing Christians and God says, I'm gonna take that guy, I'm gonna redeem him. And if God can say to Jonah, I want you to go to Nineveh. Jonah is like, no, no, no, those guys, you can, I don't want to go cuz they're so corrupt. And God says, this is who I am. This is my character, it's to redeem things. And so as I look at art forms and music, that's what I see. I had friends as I lived in Jerusalem doing archeology and stuff. And I had friends translating the Bible from African tribes where they would do these drum circles for weeks. And we were talking about, what is incarnation, right? Because Jesus doesn't come in and violate the culture. He comes in and He reaches the culture where He were. So we're talking about, you probably won't bring hymns in. You'll bring something in that is drum-based, and use their metrics, but start using their metaphors and showing them how they point to God. And so how do you redeem these things and, hip-hop, it is bragging about the women and the wine and all this stuff. We have a guy in our ministry, Jamal, and he has this great lyrics. He says, I'm not here to pour Bacardi on some model's body. I'm going home with my wife, not just for tonight, but the rest of my life. And so he's directly addressing what the industry's saying. I've got Rolex and gold and the Bentley and the babes. And he's saying, no, that's not. And so you take it and you say, how do I redeem this? How do I honor God? Because there is something powerful about spoken word, or you listen to Eminem, you cannot mistake his craftsmanship, his diction, he's a brilliant man. He just doesn't know Jesus. But why can't God redeem that? Of course, He can. Why does it work? And it works because it resonates with the human soul cuz God designed it to resonate with the human soul. So how do we flip it like God did with everything in Egypt and say, this is what it means to follow Christ. And so that's how I see it. I mean aside from worship music, music that worships Satan, but then it's not the music, you know, cuz you could talk about hard rock or different kinds of instrumentation. I don't think there's any instrument that God can't utilize. You know there's not a particular set of chord progressions God can't utilize. Even though people did centuries ago, I think certain chords were too depressing, and all But I don't see a precedent for any of that being unable for God to redeem it. So there's a place for contemporary, there's a place for traditional, I think you need the deep theology of the hymns. Showeth my son, there's theology there in Isaac Watts and some of these great tunes that sadly too much community modern contemporary Christian music, a friend of ours jokes, It's Jesus is my boyfriend, music. Jesus is just sweet and He loves me. He's gonna give me everything that's actually heresy, first of all. But we're not going to worship to feel good. We're going to worship to honor God and to honor him with our lives. And so I think that deep theology kinda keeps us focused, but we can, anyway, I've answered more than you asked there. So I'll stop. Well, I would just love to keep this going. It's like being in a gold mine. I just keep finding gold everywhere here now. So I want to comment on a couple of things about this view about redemption and to see the various ways God is redeeming in the Bible and having a biblical foundation. And I think that is a great way in these discussions that we unite in trying to seek the Lord here and trying to kind of put aside our preferences because of what makes us feel good, things like that, but that we have a good reason for why we do what we do. I think that's a great place to start. And I think you exemplify that in a very good way. The other thing that you're talking about here is about, yes, but there can be music that also can be heretical because kind of the tone, maybe a combination of the lyrics and the music it makes us so that God isn't really represented holy for who He is, right? So for example, if you only have music that only focuses on the most friendly part of the human side of Jesus, for example, you don't show his holiness, his justice and these things, you don't really represent God fully. So in one way you are you're not really being faithful to worship all the attributes of God. So you were kind of touching a bit on that and I guess that would be like a trail we could go down. I'll jump in with a couple of things. I took my family and went to Disney Concert Hall and they were doing this singalong to Handel's Messiah. And I had done that years ago with my dad. And one of the songs I love the most, I mean, I love the Holy chorus, but you know, he has born our griefs. There's this, it's a baritone, it's very somber, it's very heavy, but it fits. And it ministers to those who are suffering, who are grieving. It's like, there is a note, there is a chord progression, there is a fittingness to our experience at those chords that Jesus does connect with. And there's a place for mourning and grieving and expressing cathartically and crying out to God. And it's always been one of my favorite pieces, even though it's one of the most dark in the Messiah. And a couple of other things. There's a guy who has been a concertmaster and contractor on Broadway named Dale Stuckenbruck, and he's just an amazing violinist, of course. He also is one of the top two players of the saw in the world and a super humble guy. But we were talking about the worship wars at church in New York, and I think his perspective was so mature cuz he can play all, he's played all, you know, Carnegie and all these places and yet his point was my job, he's a mature believer, he knows Christ, and he's been asking himself, not just when I come to church, which music is for me, you need to be asking which music is ministering to the teenager and what's ministering to the young couple and what's ministering to the people that just moved here from a foreign country who don't know our culture. And I found that to be one of the most helpful to people in worship wars. I want hymns, I want contemporary, to say, look, God wants to reach everyone that comes. Our job as pastors, How do I minister to them effectively? And so it's not just the preference of the young and the hip, it's how do we reach all of them? And I love taking hymns and updating them with the new chorus. That's a great way to do it, where you kinda help both parties. But I think you need, like you got that full expression of emotion. The other thing I'd say is if you have a song that's talking about God's beauty and it's using dark chords, then there's what Nicholas Wolterstorff called a book called Art In Action. He's a professor at Calvin College and then at Yale. And his thing about art was fittingness, that's the word. The great art, there's a fittingness that if it's majestic, then the chords will have that kind of elevating lifting feel. And if it's sorrow and grieving, then it will have those minor chords and those flat thirteens and all that other stuff in there. And I think that the artist's gift is to say, how can I help the music match the theology, the experience of what David is crying out? Cause he is crying out, you know, my throat is parched and dry as a bone. There's no one my foot slipping. You know, you can't have this upbeat music. It should be just grueling. And yet, we're afraid to do that, to make it that intense. But I think if you set it up that way, it'd be much more powerful. Anyway. That's a, I think a very good comment. And to boil that down a bit it really comes down to maybe that some of the answers lies in variety. Because if we go to the Psalms in the Bible, don't we see a variety of different ways he's worshiping God, different states of emotions where, where he reaches out to God too. And when people come to church, you know, some might be sad, some might be celebrating, some might, and, and it's about meeting people where they are and then pointing them to God in effective ministry. So and some music is not, you know, by its nature and by its kind of nuts and bolts is more elevating, it's less earthbound. But there is also a place a bit more like horizontal type of you know, connection with each other, the neighborly love and, and, and these things. so I guess we have a tendency to go to, to extremes on these things. And maybe the more we try to throw rocks on the other side, the more extreme we go, the more ingrained we get in these things. And if we can now start to have conversations about these things, maybe there's a couple of things we can actually learn from each other. and I, I do see that the, the Bible says create a new song. There's definitely also, I think a warning in the Old Testament about nostalgia and kind of just looking back for the, you know, yeah. We don't know. We don't wanna go back to Egypt.<Laugh>. Right? Right. So so I think there was very important points that you bring forward there. There needs to be more variety or like some type of diversity. Just like good architecture is not just having your favorite neoclassical facade. It is kind of good architecture has different colors, different shapes, but there's a, a harmony between them and they serve sometimes different functions. so that's something I think the listeners can, can chew a little bit on. and especially for those who are composers or arrangers and people in the that have the ability to actually affect what's being created in the future, but also what, how things are being arranged in the churches and the church leaders who are might listening here on what, you know, what we should put in in, in the worship service or in a concert to look for the different ways that we of, in the human experience and different ways also to, to view God in his different attributes. And that might be different music that functions better for certain of those attributes or certain of those emotional states. So I hope that's kind of mirrored a little bit about what you were talking about there. I, I have one more question before we go on the go. Okay. And just clarify a little bit about how people can get help in this mission of, of music and, and making music that comes closer to these ideals and this goodness that we are talking about. And that will be we talking about what's worldly, but then we also have the flesh, you know, and we have the devil, right? We don't want to worship the devil either. but let, let's stay with fleshly, right? So I, I hear for example, an argument that, you know, some music kind of just give you an emotional high kind of sensations and emotions, but it kind of leave you a bit dry. You know, whatever goes up must come down type of a thing. But there's other type of music which kind of refreshes the soul, which, which kind of ma maybe it matures you, maybe it it, it transform you in some way. Can, can we see, say such things with any type of objectivity? what do you think there? Yeah, I think we can, I think it's kinda like, even in, in mainstream music, you have the kind of the bubble come pop music, you know, I love you, you love me, let's go party. Like, you know, even that song in pop, that music and pop culture can be very hot and hip and it's, but there's no standing. It, it's not, there's no nurture. It's, it's like it's like artificial food. It's like Twinkies and, you know, Coca-Cola, Doritos. Like, is it food? Yeah. <laugh>, does it sustain you? Does it really feed you? No. And, and yet artists like I've always loved seeing Peter Gabriel and some of these others. And, and even in, even in secular music, there're there are lyrics that are more deeply wrestling with the human condition and telling stories that we can relate to that are, they're like real food. And I think the same thing is in worship. If it's, if it's shallow theology and it's all about you, or you feeling good, or God doing something for you, well you, you're missing a huge part of the Christian life. And so if it's gonna be satisfying on a deep level, not just to satiate your taste buds, but you're hungry in 20 minutes, but really satiate you spiritually, I think you need that rich content, which often comes from the hymns. I think also in worship, you know, so many churches now, they, they don't even do the, the nice scene creed or the Apostles Creed or the Lord's Prayer on Sunday or responsive reading where I say, you know, the Lord has come to save us, even our suffering. We go and we worship the Lord in our suffering. And those kind of, and that kind of question to answer what the, what the African-American community does naturally from the pulpit, but activating the congregation to respond. Because what's happening is, you know, even when we're rec citing the creed, we believe in God, the Father almighty maker of heaven and earth is that you're hearing your brother and sister next to you. You're, you had a tough week. You feel alone, you're discouraged. You came for that one morsel of encouragement, and all of a sudden you hear this old man and this young kid next to you saying, together, we believe these things. And yet now in that moment, you're not alone. And you look over at the couple, you know, on the edge of divorce, or the person who just came off of alcohol, whatever it is, and they're confessing, and you're like, yes, God is here. He's working. I'm not alone. And when you only sit and listen to the pulpit, you don't get that same dynamic. It doesn't feel like a body. And I think that's a challenge for worship leaders from members. How do you get them to feel like everyone around them is with them? Hmm. And that's a danger when artists do this performance mode on Sundays, and they treat it like a singalong. Not like, I'm, I'm worshiping with you, but I'm singing for you. And if you join, it's okay. Right? Cause it's not worship. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So How do we, how do we make everyone feel like you are a part of the body and you are important, and we are all here to encourage each other because life is hard, that we're not done yet, that Jesus is coming again, and, and we can do this, and the Holy Spirit's working. Don't give up. You know, I'll get preaching. That's, I think that's critically important. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So, so some, some key words that comes to my mind when is that we need to steer away a bit from the's, say the, the, the shopping center religion of the world, the, the type of yes, consumerism of the world. And, and when we come to what is worldly, maybe that is, would be things that are egotistic or things that are to be used things that are to be consumed. S things like that might be concepts we can use when we are saying something that is worldly. Is this a song that is meant to just hit the trend and get the, the biggest box right? Then maybe it is worldly, but is this music that is meant to last? Is this meant that was meant to reach, to enrich to mature, to bring together, to engage, to help people to give instead of just guests? Yes. These type of a things. So I remember when I first got to the church that was back in Norway, in in in a Lu Lutheran church there, when I started going alone. And I remember the musician there, he was just such an amazing role model for me. He was, you know, he was playing Bach on the organ. He was improvising these beautiful variations of hymns. And he just told me, you know, when he's playing, he, like, he, he hears three chords in his mind, and he just picks one. And he, you know, just an amazing musician, but he also has leading a gospel choir. And he's also sometimes playing a bit of jazz. and I remember I, I asked him last summer, and I was like, you know, I, I have this vision of creating, like this podcast and, and this movement to, you know, to just bring together, together the body of Christ to, to develop the next type of, you know, worship songs or, you know, to bring unity in the worship wars. That that's hurt so many people on a deep level in many churches, split churches. and, and but I just want to ask you, because when, when you play music, it, there is like, there's a balance of harmony and order and predictableness, but there's also this liveness and improvisation or this freshness. And I just always loved your music. And I, I can see that you love so much when you play music. And, but you know, I have such a hard time understanding. I have some music that kind of just distract me from worshiping God and have other music where, where I just you know, there's some, some things that just really you know, this is a very hard topic for me. This is a very personal topic for, for me as a musician too. And, and he just told me, Manus, there was, one of my teachers said something about this earlier, and that's been my attitude too. And he said, it depends on where it comes from. And and that is not really like where it comes from in the world, because you would say, you know, that music came from a type of pagan source, and this came from a bit more pure source in the world, but Right. You be, be kind of been talking about, you know, that wherever it came from, you know, whatever, you know, the, for example, me being a unbeliever until I was 25, and stealing and using women and everything that I was doing, and, you know, through grace giving my beautiful wife and, and all these things, when at the times I didn't deserve it, you know, we, we have such a, that's the type of God we have. We have, we have Amen. Somebody who went on the cross gave his son for us on the cross while we were still in sin, that type of a God we have. So he's a redeemer, but what I'm pointing to here is type, what he was pointing to was, when you're playing the music and when you, or when you're, when you're arranging the, the music, when you're composing the music, where does it come from in you Like, and for him, that was what really kept it together for him, is, can I play this? And I can still come from this place of, of, of loving God and, and loving people. It comes from this, this giving place, this type of service, this, this sacrificial place. and so that, that was the thing, because he had that, that's beautiful. He could go into different genres. He could do this and whatever he played, I always felt that, okay, this, this is good. This is true. And this is beautiful. I. I love that illustration, Magnus, I think because it is coming from the heart, and it is, what, what are you trying to do? And I, you know, I remember, you know, talking to the music rangers with Tim Keller when he founded Redeemer Presbyterian, New York City, and that church was growing like crazy, and they hired all these jazz musicians. And one of the things they did on purpose was because you have all these Broadway plays, like, you know, five minutes away and all these musicians, you know how to write a song to crescendo with that high note and that little improv solo coming in the little, and then the final chord that just people wanna clap to. They're like, yeah, bravo. You know, and they said, we will not do that in church. And so part of the design was, even as you finish this song, do you leave them wanting to clap for your music? Or do you leave them thinking about the lyrics? Hmm. Do you do that crescendo that everybody else does? Or do you realize in this context that may be fine for the song in a, in a concert, but in the church, where does it come from? Where, what do you, how are you ministering to your audience from the first note to the final note? I think I just, as you're talking, that kind of, that illustration came to my mind from years ago back in New York. That is, it is, yeah. If you're coming from that heart, then you're gonna think of those things. Hmm. And you're gonna care about, they don't, they don't get overwhelmed and lost in your music, but it does facilitate worship. It does support what they're, you, what God wants them to do, what God wants them to see. I love, also, thank you. So much for Yeah, thank you so much for complimenting the discussion there. And this is a delicate topic. I know there's many strong feelings surrounding this. There is, yes. And so I think we gotta have a little guts here and, and you know, we do get out, get out of our echo chambers and really just try to have more focus on understand than being understood for, for a little while. And just get real conscious about the whole situation and having, you know, sitting Yeah. Maybe with an open mind, but also with an open Bible. And, and let's talk through this. And, and that is what we are gonna continue to do on this podcast. We're gonna bring people from all kinds of traditions. There will be, I hope there will be people who are very passionate about just one side. That would be great. And just see, yeah, yeah, sure. Why are you so ingrained on that one side, right? and, and they may might be open to something which a person of the same denomination maybe doesn't. And, and what, so if we can examine the fruits, it says in the, in the Bible, we need to, you need to examine the fruits. yes. And also we need to examine our motivations. And I think that there is great potential here, not only for richer worship and to get more dedicated disciples of Jesus, but also to create music that will be a blessing to the nations to a blessing that, that actually will bring people into an experience of beauty, of awe, of, of love in the world. And, and that will also like how Christianity in so many times of history has been a center of the high arts of where you found excellence. Yes. Where you could take a step out of the world and see that there is something deeper than what the consumer society and modernism is trying to say. That this is all there is. Definitely, it's not. And I've been at both sides of that spectrum, and I'm saying there is an amazing depth also for maybe those who are listening or more, more, more, more on the modern side. I just want to say I played, you know, and listen mostly to modern music. And I still, I love, you know, I, I listen to rap shalin, things like that, and, and I, yeah, yeah. I, I do listen to different types of music, but there is an amazing experience with some of these classical or hymns that we should Yes, definitely listen to. And, and, and sometimes also you can see some of these the new music coming out there is, there is a beauty, there's a greatness there, even though sometimes it's more simple, you know, some of buffs pieces, they are quite simple, you know? but it's, it's beautiful. and, and it's rich and it's, and it's deep. And I think if we have, if you're living a spiritual life, we should search for bringing music into a, a deeper way of living where, where God is present and we are present of, we are aware of him. yeah. So Joel, how can you help maybe the, the, the worship leader or the independent musician or the, you know, the pastor maybe wanting more answers around what type of music to make? Can you just kind of point people in the right direction or say how you can serve them in, in, in this mission? Yeah. Yeah. I don't, do, you know, I used to be in all the worship war and as debates and, and yeah, I kind of, I, I, now I focus on mainstream artists, but I think still a lot of the principles are how do you reintegrate your faith with your craft and what you create. And our ministry does that in LA for mainstream. A lot of it applies completely to worship leaders, but you can go to our website, ww dot a as in arts dash, or hyphen e like Entertainment dash m as in ministries.org. Go there and we have videos and blogs and all kinds of stuff. and you can reach out to us and ask me questions. I'm happy to help in our denomination, when men get ordained, they often have to answer questions about theology on worship. And some reason I'm the guy, a lot of 'em call so they don't get <laugh> get hung up on those. But so I'm happy to help with that. I'm trying to think what the resources. There is a book by John Frame on contemporary worship. It was so helpful for me. And I was gonna write the book cuz I was so frustrated. But he, he's classically tank trained musician and a world-class philosopher and theologian. And he wrote a book about his experience playing piano and church and encountering the, the traditional versus the contemporary. And, and even the thing like people on traditional say, yeah, but the contemporary music is so repetitive. You're like, yeah, but the hallelujah course is pretty repetitive too. <laugh>, hallelujah, hallelujah hall, you know, there's a place. And so he kind of speaks those argue us apart very graciously. So I would encourage his book and I'll give you a link to that later to put in the show notes. but that's, that's primarily where I'd look and look to scripture, keep reading passages by David and others in the Bible where God used them to write and keep singing a new song and ask God, how does this minister, and how is this incarnation? That'll be my kinda focal point. Wonderful. Joel, can you repeat the name one more time for the of the book for the listeners? Yes. It's called here just a second. This may show up reversed, but this is it. There's probably a new cover that I bought this 30 years ago, contemporary Worship music by John Frame, a Biblical defense. So he's a classical musician writing a defense of contemporary worship music. Very interesting that yeah, that can bring a lot of respect if you're able to not just create strongman arguments and actually look, yeah, put the other side on the best view. Maybe the other side will also be inspired by that example to see the best view of the other side and we can start to have some important collaborations. And on that note, that is one of the, the goals here. that is to get the different artists and church leaders together here. and so if you wanna be, you are inspired, you, you have some views on this, if they're strong or diverse or whatever they are email send, send 'em in an email. You can send an email to contact beauty and the faith dot com. That is also the name for my other pod podcast, which specifically talks about the relation between beauty and the faith. so that is a more broad podcast, which if you're interested in, in more different diverse type of arts forms. Joel, it's been great to have you here. I know that your your support, your education and community is helping many artists, many musicians, to ground themself and, and have more joy and inspiration to keep on understanding that what they are doing is important. They're not, you know, second class ministers if they're an artist. No. and they're not just teaching. Amen. Right. so, you know, I I would encourage you to check out this website because many of these things can be applied in your life as a musician, even though they can also be applied from various types of artists and filmmakers and things like that. Joel, it's been so great to have you here. I I looking forward to also read your book about beauty that that will be com coming out. so God bless you, brother. we'll keep in touch. Thank you, Magnus. Great to be with you. God bless. God bless.