[Ep06] Worship Leaders' Principles For Fitting Church Music w/ Composer & Organist Frederik Magle

In this episode, we have Frederik Magle, a prominent classical composer from Denmark, on the show talking about the role of music in church and the challenges faced by church leaders.

Magle discusses the principles of music that give glory to God and the importance of striving for excellence in musical expression. Magle stresses the need for mutual respect and understanding among church musicians and leaders, and for letting the fruit of love be a guiding principle. Magle emphasizes the worshipful nature of music for evangelism and suggests that music should reflect the principles of worship and evangelism in a balanced manner.  Additionally, Magle provides contact information for those interested in his music and encourages engagement with his work through various online platforms.

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Transcript

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If it's one thing, today's episode will be known for, I think it's by its love. We have with us a prominent classical composer from Denmark that has a message to church leaders of understanding and love, but is also then challenging us to be able to better work together with the authority of other church leaders who will be pointing to different principles that we can follow in our decision making to glorify God more fully. I'm very, very excited to be sharing this episode with you today. Let's dive into it. There's a war in our churches between modern and traditional music. But the question is this, can we creatively integrate the best of both worlds to unify the body of Christ and glorify the Lord more fully? Join us on this podcast as Christians from various dance share their voice and come together to develop new creative arrangements and compositions that will help us to worship the Lord more fully and to empower evangelism. I'm Magnus Gautestad, and welcome to SDG Music Radio. Welcome. We have now a new opportunity to come together to glorify God more fully by actually worshiping in the best of both worlds, to finding a way where the church as an as a whole can be more holistic in its thinking to then express and reflect all the attributes of God and also to teach the whole Bible. We are now coming together to see this from a bigger perspective. I think we all can have the temptations of stepping into man-made traditions, and we want to really tune out and put first thing first. We come together here in love. We have different people with different convictions. I think one thing we need today, especially as believers, is to get out of just these echo chambers. Because as Jesus said, what benefit do you have by only loving them, which is easy to love? If we can come and create an environment of respect and have these conversations, I really think that if you're in a modern Church or in a more traditional Church, there is actually something we can learn from each other to have the most excellent music we can. I think God is worthy of that. Now we have with us a very interesting guest here today, Frederik Magle from Denmark. How are you today, Frederik? I'm great. Thank you. It's a great pleasure being here. Thank you for the invitation. Well, I'm glad that you appreciate it. I sure do. We'll let you jump into an introduction here. Frederik Magle's music has united some of Denmark's biggest performing groups and celebrated some of the nation's most significant milestones. As a musician, he has worked across genres and styles, represented his country at international competitions, and forged an individual and distinctive path that remains unparalleled in Scandinavia. Born in the island of Falster, Magle was a child prodigy who was eight when his music performed in public for the first time. He was admitted to the Royal Danish Academy of Music a year early, the only student approved to major in both organ and composition. Grateful but restless, he left after a year and a half, eager to get to work in both capacities. Magle's relationship with Denmark's Royal House was initiated with a work written to mark a visit by Queen Margrethe II and Prince Henrik to the composer's hometown on Falster, Stubbekøbing. In 2017, Magle was appointed to his first official organist position at St. Paul Church in Copenhagen, where he is employed as both performer on organ and piano and composer. He writes music for the church liturgical cycle and presents regular improvisations on liturgical tune and themes on both instruments. I could have gone on and on and on for the various things that Magle has done to also get his music out there, get the music out of the churches or just out of the classical halls. He has been a part of a very interesting hospital project I've seen where he has made soothing music, beautiful music for those who are in a difficult time in their life there. I've seen he's been working together both with hip hop artists and included rock elements in some of his crossover projects. Very, very interesting to read more about him. You can do that on magle.dk there you can also find music and various ways of seeing his music. It's been a great encouragement for me to discover Frederik and now being able to get to know Frederik. We're now going to jump into some questions about the challenges we have in the bigger body of Christ in this life. Let's start with the challenging one, Frederik. I hope you're ready for that. What type of music gives glory to God and what doesn't? Well, first of all, I would say that in a way, everything we do give glory to God in that sense that our entire existence gives. But obviously there are some you say that perhaps gives more glory to God. In a way that is better suited, I think God wants what is best for us as humans and as humans living together. The type of music that would give the most glory to God, if I may say so, you have to be very careful not to try to speak for God or to... Because we are humans after all, and the ways of God are indeed mysterious to us. But we can deduct that, I would say the music that is giving the most glory to God is the music that helps other people be receptive and other people experience the spirituality, the beauty, and to give something. Music that gives a gift to our fellow human beings that we can love them, we can love our neighbor in the same way that we can love God, and we can love the neighbor in the same way we love ourselves. I would say that music that opens the way and shows the truth and the way to our fellow humans, that would indeed be the music, whichever type of music it is that would, in my opinion, I would believe gave the greatest glory to God. Great. Clear principles to keep in mind there, going back to putting first thing first again about love, which sums up the whole Bible, if you want to put it in a word. I think we have a good principle to go from there. This is also seeing how we best can love other people, which is made in this image and by their existence, they are glorifying him, that will point us in the right direction of then to really understand what truly is best for them. I would then say, first and foremost, spiritually, because everything comes, our whole life comes out of our heart. I think that's something we can, when we go into decisions about music to make, music to choose for our services, all of that, instead, if we don't go on autopilot or we just do what we feel, but we have some of these principles in mind while we do that, we can go from outside and in when we are making these decisions with music relating to God. That might be something that can help us to think in the best way on how we can serve him and other people. I want to go to another question here, and that is for more specifically, you have been a church leader within the music ministry for a long time in different ways. So four leaders of music in the churches, what is your main advice now for moving forward? I would say one important thing, one thing that makes it different, there are, of course, different ways and there are different approaches and different things that need to be done to move forward. But one of the things is not to have a wall between the spiritual, the religious, the liturgical part of the service and the music. Do consider the whole thing connected. And I would see... I know there are probably some great musicians out there who feel disconnected to the religious part, to the spiritual part of the service. And there can be many reasons. I know it can also be difficult to work within because the church as an organization, and I'm assuming this is the case all over the world, there can be a difference of opinions, and the priest and the musical director or organist are not always on the same page. But try to remain consider that this music has to be part. This is not just music that exists in a vacuum outside of the church service, of the high mass, of whatever service is being done in the church. The music is an integral part. And even if you, as a church leader, may have issues with the priests or the council or whatever it can be, it's important to understand that the music is very much a part of the message, the preaching, the gospel, the whole thing. It cannot be seen in a vacuum. You have to work closely together with, especially the priests or the priests. There is no other way around it. If you have, and I know that sometimes this can actually be very damaging. Inside the church, there can be a lot of churches where there are differences between the musicians and the liturgical, the clerical staff. Do what you can to solve it. Do what you can to solve it. Obviously, there are things you may not be able to compromise on the quality of what you do. We need to also ensure that whatever music we do, it's not autopilot. We have to strive for excellence. And if you have a difficulty striving for that excellence because you have different difficulties with some of the other people in the church, maybe the priests could be. That happens a lot. I don't have that. But I'm not talking from experience, I'm talking to a lot of other organists and music directors, and I'm just knowing what's going on in the church world. Then remember that you are serving a higher cause, and you're also serving the congregation, and you are serving God. Remember that so that you can set differences aside and you're striving for a higher goal and hold yourself to it, strive for excellence. Because when you do your autumn roast and even go beyond that, what you are doing is you're giving a gift to the congregation. We talked about in the first time, the glory to God, also striving to do that extra. It makes a colossal difference. I'm talking on these... This is a message for the church, music directors and organists out there, choir directors. I hear you. You have on one side, if the music becomes all utilitarian, it's just for the use, it's just a vehicle to get things across, that can be something lacking there. One of the principles you're saying is to do that extra, go the extra mile in there, do more than what is expected. You're also talking about that laying aside differences. I think when we say differences, it's more of that subjective feeling of preferences. Then we can then strive toward higher goals. That is what we're trying to do on the show here, that if you listen to a few of these episodes, you'll start to get a little list of principles that we all can agree on. What I do believe is that if you come within them, for example, that one that we've been talking about is that musicians should strive to teach the whole Bible, even some of the difficult parts and all of the different attributes of God, so we can truly know him for who he is and not just focus on a little part of him. If you had some of these principles, I'm sure you would be more effective if you then go to the preach, which has a heavy theological education, for example, which is very much in you want to guard the Gospel, you want to be sure that he's faithful to the word. If you try to understand it from his perspective, then I think there will be a lot easier to communicate from the musician, which sometimes can have a bit more of an artistic or emotional type of personality. Not always, but at least most musicians need to have that too to be able to really understand and relate to people. Of course, priests also have that human side developed, of course. When you have your Holy Spirit in you, then, of course, you are able to relate on a very profound level with people. But the point is here that we are trying to understand the different church leaders and speak their language and come together on objective principles here. We're seeing that and experiencing that, we might be able to see that there is ways that are even more glorious than maybe our automatic, subjective leanings. I must say, going through a huge transformation in my life in terms of the music that I appreciate, going basically from the most heavy metal possible as an 11-year-old to just sitting in awe of Bach in my 20s. I would say that to be open to that there are ways where you can come closer to God, to his presence, to be enriched as a person and all of this by learning also about deepening your theology and about who God is that might also open up that, okay, I want to experience the full richness of God. Some music can be good to express some parts of Him. But maybe that style, just because it usually sounds a lot of the same, you will maybe start to get a sense, okay, this can be good for something. But if I really want to reflect the whole God so people can really know Him in its fullest, I need to be looking more widely on this or deeper on this. That's an encouragement that got inspired to me here. Now, I want to just ask you here, is there any difference in music for evangelism and music for worship? What I mean, there are some churches that are very seeker-friendly that has a lot of the type of evangelism for unbelievers in their churches. But what I'm referring to here is in a more typical church service, serving the congregation, and then being out there in the world more as a missional, making spiritual songs to the world, basically. Do you have any principles of where the boundaries for that? Maybe you make up your compositions that you wouldn't play on a Sunday, for example? Yes, I would say there are definitely compositions. I don't think I've ever made a composition that would be 100 %, at least not compositions which are all my own, which I've not made in any collaborations. But if I take my own compositions, I don't think there's any compositions I've ever made that would be 100 % inappropriate to be played on a Sunday. But with that said, it is important to remember that the music has a function. And as you mentioned, it mustn't be too utilitarian. We have to strive for the excellent. We have to strive for the emotion, for the feeling also, and for the opening, and for the belief in the music, for the spirituality, if you wish. But we also have to realize that different music. But it's actually very simple way to determine that. We also have the liturgical calendar. And we have to also say some music may have been good at this in the trinity period, in the late trinity period, or perhaps obviously the obvious examples are, of course, Easter and Christmas, where there are special music for that, and we have the ascension and so on, so forth. But for the rest of the time, some music will be more suitable for that. And sometimes I would say in my church, I have a very close collaboration with the priest, and the priest has... I have an extended freedom. But the priest also has extended freedom to say to me which type of music that would be well suited for this particular... Also, her sermon and the music I play are connected and are not going in opposite directions. I think that's very, very useful, as I said. Specifically, the issue between the evangelism and the worship. Well, I don't know if I'm actually... I think there will always be worship in evangelism. And I also think I'm not really knowledgeable about the specific details within music, how you would distinguish these two things. But I think that every music that is evangelizing, that is spreading the good word is, in effect, worship music in the sense that by doing God's work, we are, in fact, also worshiping God in that doing that. One minute break? Hold on. Not even a minute break. Sure. Sorry, I'm back here. That's okay. It was again, a beautiful, complete phrase by his own. I'll just comment quickly on that, and we'll go just into the last question, and then we'll close within three minutes. If you have a good point there, then when making music in more, for example, for unbelievers, more to connect with people on a certain level, remember that you are also worshiping them. It's not like you're putting away the worship for Sunday and then you step out and then you put on this new hat. You are basically, God is everywhere. Being a Christian is not something we do on Sundays. That type of sense of when you are making music for different purposes, if it's following a church calendar or is to match a sermon or it is to really be able to reach the stone hearts, remember that all that is a type of worship. Luther talking about even making shoes is a type of worship. We can take this principle into whatever music we make and to make sure that that love and reverence is in it all. Frederick, how can Christians come together to make more beautiful music both for modern and traditional churches? Do you have a quick take on that? Yes, I would say that, first of all, it's very important that we do not assume ill intent. And by that I mean we must go into it with the assumptions, which I believe would be correct the vast majority of times, that even though there are people who do music and experience music and try to worship in a different way, that they are being honest about it and that they do what they believe is best. So we have to meet them with a compassion and respect. And hopefully that respect will be mutual. I know it sounds even like cheesy or cliché, but we have to find some middle ground because if we are just standing on each our side and say, We have no, this is the only right new seek for evangelism or for worship, or No, this is the only one, then we will not get anywhere. We will not get anywhere. Well, we see that in politics and in the world in general. The tribalism that is taking place in these days and age is not bringing anything forward and certainly not the glory of God. We will have to like... I'm not saying we don't have to compromise on our own values, on our own music making, because we're not seeking a compromise. We're seeking an understanding and we're seeking making room for that. What I would say is now there's a specific place between, as I understand now, my church is a very traditional church. We do not have anything. It's not because we are against it, but it simply not suits our expression, our liturgy. We have primarily only what you would call what you would describe as classical music. But I know there are a lot of churches that have worship music, where they have worship bands and they have a different contemporary Christian music. And that is perfectly fine, too. I think it's very important that there is a good reason to say that the traditional classical music is a very broad term, I know. But what you would call the traditional church music in a broad sense still have its place. And it's important to keep that. I think it's important... I would say there can be room for both. But we have to not look at people who look at it differently as the enemies. That's the same thing I have when I... In general, when I'm composing, not just music for the church, but music in general, also the talk about the contrast between the melodic and beautiful music, if you can use that term, and then contraverses the modernistic music. It's important that we try not to see people who see things differently as enemies. Sometimes they can be, actually, of course, and sometimes it is inevitable. But it is very important that we, and I believe also as Christians, do not go into the world seeing all enemies around us and seeing everyone who thinks differently and who does things differently. And then we have to just make sure that what... And this is not to say that I know that church leaders and church musicians, church music directors are doing it, colossal work and really going above and beyond. But this is also what we need to do. We need to make sure that our expression of music is the very best it can be. And we need to reach on. We need to... And this is important. We need to feel the music ourselves. We need to feel what the music can do to others in ourselves. We must not be cynical and all theoretical about it, because then it just becomes going through the motions. We need to continue to feel the music in ourselves. And then I believe, and then we must accept that there are other ways to do it, and hopefully give room. If we give room for, okay, if you have a church where you have both types of music, we'll give some room, but they also need to give some room. We need to find that co-existence. Yes, I know it sounds very simple and it's easier said than done, but some of the greatest truth are maybe all, in fact, very uncomplex on the surface and in their essence at the same times, but much easier said than done. But let's strive for excellence. Let's do that. Yes, striving for excellence and then starting to have a certain level of respect and understanding for others and not immediately questioning their intentions, I think that can be a part of having discussions and start to learn why we are doing what we are doing. Also understand that there's not all churches that has room to have both styles in its pure form. That is not necessarily what we are talking about here, that we're going to have this multicultural society in each Church. That's not what we're talking about here. But what we are talking about that there are certain principles behind the intentions of both music. For example, some music is there to really heighten the experience, the emotional experience of the music. Other ones is to reflect God in his beauty and His Majesty, for example. If we can, for example, combine these two that the music is. Both. Emotional and experiential, and both has aspects of it, at least during a month, that you have been able to make music excellent enough to reflect that Majesty, that type of elevating, not the earthbound, more view, the human side of Jesus, but that you can his Lordship and all of that. If we're able to look at the principle behind here, then when we are composing new beautiful music, and I hope we will see a lot of that also in the churches, there is no reason why the Holy Spirit wouldn't inspire new, beautiful music so people can be a part of that work that we remember these principles of what the word teaches and what people need. Let's go into a close here now. I know you have some different services for musicians, and I would encourage people to be open to encourage Christian musicians that are making new music and be open to including that in some way also in your churches, but also in your even generalistic or more initiatives. But, Frederik, how can people get in contact with your services? Well, the best way and the easiest way is to start with my personal website, which is magle, M-A-G-L-E.dk And from there there's both direct contact form, and there is a web shop where you can buy my sheet music, a lot of it. I'm in the process of publishing my entire back catalog on my new publishing house. And there's even a music forum. There are obviously also links to my social web presence on Facebook and Instagram and YouTube, et cetera, Spotify and so on. So that would be a good starting point. And then don't hesitate to reach out to me directly. I can be sometimes terribly slow at replying, but trust me, it is not of ill will, and I will eventually. So if you have a little patience, absolutely do not hesitate to contact me directly also. Thank you very much. So again, that the web address is magle, in English, and then dk, they like to do in Denmark. Thank you very much everyone for listening to this and having a general interest. Frederik, I'm so grateful that you can be with us here today and represent your perspectives as a highly experienced musician and Church leader. I hope that everyone here would consider the principles we have learned here today so we can come together and glorify God more fully. For those who are listening, remember that we are on Instagram, we're on YouTube and all different podcast directories, so you can then engage with us. We want your comments in the comments sections. We want to have a conversation together here, so please don't hesitate to leave your thoughts. With that, have a beautiful day.